Think Forward: Conversations with Futurists, Innovators and Big Thinkers
Welcome to the Think Forward podcast where we have conversations with futurists, innovators and big thinkers about what lies ahead. We explore emerging trends on the horizon and what it means to be a futurist.
Think Forward: Conversations with Futurists, Innovators and Big Thinkers
Anticipating the Future with Mathias Bjornhoff | Think Forward EP 148
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The future does not fail because we lack ideas. It fails because we cannot commit to turning insight into action. We sit down with a Mathias, a futures practitioner who grew up on a small Danish island, found his way into the Copenhagen Institute for Future Studies, and later built Anticipate Futures to make strategic foresight more usable, more teachable, and more accessible to people who are trying to drive real change inside organizations.
We get practical about what actually works: how to move beyond “foresight as a project” and build organizational foresight as a capability, how to find allies so the work does not die when one champion leaves, and why communication matters as much as any framework.
We also talk about...
• growing up on a small Danish island and how travel shapes global citizenship
• moving from innovation and diplomacy ambitions into futures studies and strategic foresight
• learning by doing at the Copenhagen Institute for Future Studies and what practice teaches that theory cannot
• building Anticipate Futures to make foresight accessible, actionable, and present-focused
• using the ACT framework to connect anticipation, creation, and transformation
• embedding organizational foresight so it survives beyond a single champion
• selling foresight as making a business case and finding allies across departments
• making futures education more affordable through lightweight masterclasses
• using hopeful framing to avoid apathy while staying pragmatic
• generative AI as an amplifier and a risk for bland “beige futures”
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Thank you for joining me on this ongoing journey into the future. Until next time, stay curious, and always think forward.
Change By Design Or Disaster
SPEAKER_02What do you think would be the thing to f to uh make the change over the next ten year? Like what what would what would make it work?
SPEAKER_01I hate to say it, but we need to change either by design or disaster. And uh it seems like desiers disaster is the more likely option. Unfortunately the more probable one if we talk in the futures language, but we can also design a way out of things. So I think we need to with the all the everything that's going on in the world, seek back to our local communities in a way. I also talk about and there's uh and I can't remember who it it was who said this, but but being um a citizen, it should be an active verb. It's something we are and part of who we are in when we go out with society, democracy on a very local community basis, that we have agency in decisions, we have a role to play, and we should also take responsibility on ourselves to make it better for the the collective because then we all might even feel better or generations from now, people might feel better because of what we did, right?
Welcome And The Guest’s Journey
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Think Forward Show.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Great to have you here, man. Really good to be here, yeah. Yeah, you're uh I would call you a it's like the 20 years become an overnight success. You know, it's like you've been doing this a long time, but like uh you're you're you've been hustling and uh a lot of people in the space. Uh your anticipate organization is awesome, and I know your your master classes have uh been really well received. But before we get into that, I want to hear about your story. I know you grew up in Bornholm, it's a tiny island, but why don't you take it from like your where you started, where you came, you know, kind of how you felt coming into futures. And uh we want to talk about my favorite term, fit futures diplomat.
SPEAKER_01So take it away. That sounds good. Yeah, I love uh getting a shout-out on the on your podcast, Stephen. Thank you so much for having me. Uh it's really a pleasure. I've been following along for a while, and and and it's it's uh it's an honor to to be part of that uh group of people
Growing Up On A Small Island
SPEAKER_01I have on here. Yeah, so uh so my story began in in on a tiny island uh in the Baltic Sea. Um it's it's not very known on in the on the world stage uh except for being uh Word Stream 2, uh gas pipeline blew up very close to. That was kind of uh 15 minutes of fame uh for a moment there, and then it's an it's an energy island, so actually it's it's actually there's a lot of considerations around the future in that regard and what it should be. And yeah, so I grew up with uh with very safe childhood, risk-averse parents in some ways, which is not really maybe related to what I'm doing now and being an entrepreneur and working with futures, I would say there's a bit of a a risk uh part to that. It was a very uh safe upbringing, and you kind of knew where things were and there's a lot of trust in the society. I think uh for me it it was really like a place of comfort. And I didn't know much about the other parts of the world in that sense, except for what I could learn. But luckily, my parents again not were working with public sector wages, they they didn't have like an insane amount of money, very middle class uh upbringing in that sense. But we went on a on a road trip to the US every second year from when I was 11 to when I I moved away from home, and and that really shaped a lot of my world and and I just got to see what's what else is out there and I've been traveling a lot since and and really love to experience new cultures, uh being curious about what else is going on out there, right? And seeing how different people perceive not just you know themselves but as part of a collective as well.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's interesting, you know, an island of one thing about you know small places like that. Are there people that live on the island that never leave it? Like they've never they've been there their whole life, and that's that's that's it for them.
SPEAKER_01For sure. Yeah, I I think for most young people actually they they have a there's a rite of passage where you move away to take a university degree if that's your kind of career trajectory, because you can't do that. There's one high school on this island for 40,000 people, so you can you can probably tell it's not a big place in that way. So you kind of have to move to Copenhagen or to the other parts of Denmark at some point, and that's also what happened to me. Uh I moved uh to Copenhagen now almost 15 years ago, uh, together with my my partner, which is also my career partner, my high school sweetheart, uh, you might say. And we kind of um yeah, you kind of have to get that experience. Don't typically people move back. So there's kind of this, I think, island mentality that you know you you know what you came from in that sense, and it's a safe and and kind of comforting and then a more slow pace of life, I would say, in in in many positive ways.
SPEAKER_02Makes me think of uh America, we have the Amish, the uh Rumspringer, where the kids have a year to kind of either they're gonna come back and join the church and do the Amish thing or they're gonna go out and I think that they get excommunicated there or something to them, you know, it's kind of pretty harsh, but but yeah, I mean going out and I think you know, even just gap years, right, for kids and and it in any culture to kind of see other things, but you got a chance to see the you know road trips in the United States. In terms of uh of uh traveling the US, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think you know, uh in in Denmark, we I love Danish people, and we I just had a workshop today where we actually discussed like what are the really positive sides to Denmark, what should our vision be for the future in that sense between different uh business people and and we have these very grounding things to our culture in that sense that we're we have to look outside, we have to be open-minded. We have a strong sense of trust you have uh from the beginning, right? It's it's a kind of the standard. Lose that trust over time, but but in the beginning we're very uh trust trusting people in that sense. And and I think one part that I really loved about the US is the land of dreams and opportunity, all these different stories that you've been told. I've the US have a massive cultural influence, and uh still to this day, I I think especially in Denmark, we have been close allies and and partners of the US for many years, so we really look up to many of the things that are happening over there in your country, right? Uh for me it was it was mind-blowing to see these things in relative everything from Disney World to New York where I dreamt about you know, working like everyone else, working and living and and experiencing that really American uh lifestyle, the openness and in the service culture, people always curious about where you're from, who you are, um this this like melting pot that very years term, but um they actually saw people from different parts of life. Like Den Denmark is a very homogeneous country, but it's even more about homogeneous island. We're mostly Caucasian people here from the same kind of cultural background. We got everybody. We got it, we got everybody. Exactly, exactly. That that was inspiring for me to see like how people could live together peacefully and and and in uh in somewhat homogeneous society. It wasn't maybe more so 20 years ago, unfortunately. Uh it's it seems like it's been a turn in a bad direction, but but at least uh that was something that was inspiring for me to to experience growing up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's it's interesting that a lot of the news will cover the the bad spots of this of things here in the culture, in the country. Overall, I mean, Americans are great. We all want the same thing. You know, we want great education, safety for our kids, good home, have fun with our friends, you know, spend time with our families. We all want the same things. You know, I think when you get to see that diversity, we do that with my son. We've traveled countries and other places, and I it's important for him to grow up as a global citizen. He's an American. He might he'll eventually hopefully have a dual citizenship with your in Europe, but it'll give him, I hope, a perspective that I didn't have. And it's really great your parents were had that foresight.
SPEAKER_01Are they still on the island? Yep, they're still uh based on the island. And you know, eventually we also talk about moving back as everyone else, but you know, being a futurist on a small island is not uh not that you're in the case.
From Diplomacy Dreams To Futures Work
SPEAKER_02Now let's get to voting your you voted yourself off the island in the survivor vernacular. You voted yourself off the island. I mean, I know you come back, just but you got an internship with uh the Copenhagen Institute for Fort for uh Future Studies, which is world-renowned. I mean, that's a that's a heck of a way to kind of get into the space. So and in so that journey, how did you kind of transition into finding this? Because you had a different out you had a different, I would say, plan for your career, you know, in terms of consulate work and kind of the diplomat, but you found that this is a I find that this is one of the coolest angles to work in diplomacy because you're really talking about the future of like peace. Like how do you make a better future, right? So how did how did this journey go and come from? Yeah, it's it's fascinating. I know it, but I want the audience to hear this.
SPEAKER_01No, I I I think you know, my work we were coming from von Holm and trying to like find an educational path was was difficult. Uh I wanted to be an anthropologist at some point. That's a very high, I think you have to have a very high grades and then change context. Uh like the uh one of the highest uh degrees, the more difficult ones to get into. So that was not uh really a possibility. I wanted to study history, but I also wanted to get a job. Sorry, historians out there, but that was that's the kind of the reality. I had a very simple mind in that sense of what can it be. So I went to business school and and studied language and culture and and tried to to learn Spanish and and was an exchange in the the best country in Spain and learned a lot from there as well. And and uh that was a fascinating cuff, but but in all honesty I I kind of tripped on on innovation as as my good my my thing first. I failed a course in Spain, I had to take them all in Spanish, that was super difficult. Failed the course, I had to take an elective in Copenhagen stuff, and I just thought, you know, now three years into my bachelor's degree undergraduate, what do I actually want to do and and innovation? That that kind of like sparks something in me, right? The the newness to things, like how do we combine things? And so I I studied a degree in innovation, entrepreneurship, no plans to become an entrepreneur whatsoever. That was never in my like my risk-averse self and and my upbringing, uh, to kind of step outside of that, how much in society and the ways of doing things that being an entrepreneur involves the risks, right? And so I did that and and I kind of had this I was still drawn to geopolitics that I've been growing up as well. We also always watched the news of while we ate dinner, and of course we talked about the day and stuff like this, but we we tended to kind of follow what's been happening. My dad, he was an endless commentator on on everything, uh, politics, and uh that was you know, maybe annoying.
SPEAKER_02Is he a politics political, is he a junkie, like news junkie kind of uh yeah, but he I he doesn't really realize it himself.
SPEAKER_01So he's uh he's a retired uh policeman.
SPEAKER_02If he's listening now, he'll be like, Yeah, you are dad. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm not I'm not sure we're gonna send it to him, but let's see. Oh wow. Detective and uh in Van Home, actually. Yeah, so um no, but he always commented, I think it's been my my uh grand-grand great grandfather, he was in the in the parliament. I never met him, unfortunately. I think it's kind of like kind of trickle down through our family that that that's that's in your blood.
SPEAKER_02It's definitely in your blood, man. Yeah, in that sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that that's kind of at this moment, you know, almost finishing my degree trying to figure out what do I want to do next step. Always dreamt of going to the US for exchange or you know, that one year in high school. I have this very like simple, like everyone else, I think, growing up in in Europe, like this idea of the American high school country's life and what it is and what it isn't. And that was for a long time my inspiration. I think in high school, they even like uh we have this book that you they send it out, like your book, uh, that says, okay, what do you what are you gonna become when you're like growing up and getting a career and it said, Oh, he's gonna be a businessman in the US. That was uh what people thought of me in high schools. Yeah. Um so I had this idea, yeah, why not like try to to get into some uh some some consulates? So then Denmark as an open country, trading with many different places, and and people in mind it's we have this innovation center. So I applied for some of those, tried to lend internship. I thought about applying for the ones in the Spanish-speaking countries, but I also realized my uh limitations in that regard. But I've really been always been like really eager to be, you know, study culture and and trade and geopolitics and how how do you actually navigate those uh very tough and sometimes very relational situations that that are happening between different countries, like both innovation but also in general with trade and commerce. So so that was something I I really wanted to do actually, and especially also because we went to visit Silicon Valley when I was in in my master's degree. I was part of the group that kind of planned that trip and that brought even more inspiration, right? So that was I had my eyes set on that. That was my kind of my internship plan, uh, and then third career in diplomacy. Yeah, they they wouldn't have me. So uh so I was I was uh approaching approaching summer and I was like, ah yeah, let me just look one last time to see if there's an internship that fits my my interest. Um and there I I came across something, future studies internship. What does that mean? And I I read the application form from from from SIFs, and I just it was my my personality one-to-one, like just me in a job posting. I don't think many people get so experienced that during the lives.
SPEAKER_02That is, I'm telling you, man, in the futures world, you won the lottery. Because like that, so many people professional try and get work roles like that. But I think also you were in the internship, you started in a place that was more accessible, I think, but still it's hard to get, you know, get in there. And you evolved into doing being the head of partnerships. And I think for me, what you know many of the listeners would want, you know, because you know this organization, right? Like others, it's like, what did you learn? What do you think, in your opinion, kind of with some perspective now, now that you're you have your own firm, what did you think you learned there that was you couldn't have learned anywhere else? Like what was what were those things that you just was like, wow, like this is just a great place, which it is, like what's a great place?
What Copenhagen Future Studies Taught
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, for sure. I I also very much my identity emerged with that place, right? It was my first the step, the first step in my career. I landed a full-time position as a consultant and was lucky enough to work there for some years and had some great colleagues, and then it's a great place to be in many ways, full of nerds, right? Curious people, and it's a rare place in in the futures world in that sense that you actually have, I think they're around 30, right? But 30 people with the same kind of mindset in that way, but also very proactive in the spirit. So I I I love being there um in many ways, and I think I'm I'm super privileged to have had this experience, right? I fell into this field and I can see also the interest that has increased in the futures and foresight field since that you know this is something special to have. That I actually I didn't have any formal training, but I managed to train through practice, which is what is the reverse of many people who are coming into this field, they want to work on projects and do all these cool things that are part of the the work, but it's it's not that easy because it's it's difficult to get that first experience, get your foot in the door, right? Uh and I got that by chance in some ways. So um I think that was that's that's really something I cherished a lot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, that's wonderful. Many many people you know come into this space to kind of actually fall into it or they just they see it and it's like, oh, you could do this as a job. And it but a lot of people do, myself included, kind of learn the field, you know, passion for the work, but maybe in places that are not as receptive, the culture's not, but there's there's other ways to bring it, incorporate it, you know, into like innovation or other ways you can bring it in. But you're ref you worked with a lot of organizations and you saw the gap, which leads leads will lead into talking about building the anticipate organization. Your master classes, I love it. You call them they're very simple, simple verbs, doing foresight, selling foresight, you sound it's all that kind of firsthand, right? What was the motivation to kind of you know when leaving there, start anticipate? Was
Why Anticipate Futures Exists
SPEAKER_02it just like you you feel like you had a direction? Like what was the thing that kind of motivated you to kind of take that? Because it's you know, a lot of us are entrepreneurs listening. It's a you know, it's a leap, right? It's kind of sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so three years ago, I I knew I was I was gonna need the SIFs. I had some months to consider my my time while still working there. And you know, I I started looking outside, and that's maybe something that's a bit of a what you're a bit blind to in an organization where you can sustain yourself and people interested in working with you is and that that that's just that I didn't feel the need, besides for commercial activity, to really expand my network and my horizon in that sense. So that's that's something I regret a lot that I didn't do before because you know coming out of the Copenhagen Future Studies and seeing what else is there lying lying in front of me in terms of the world of foresight was just astonishing. Yeah, I I tried to figure out should I move back into innovation? That is a lot of interest, big interest of mine. You know, jobs in the foresight field is not like they're not really something you can just get uh instantly, right?
SPEAKER_02Uh I would say an opening design or a product management role. And I think that's why a lot of people take those roles and they bring their futures, you know, skill set. Because it's a question of is it a skill or is it a job? Well, it could be both, right? It's like, yeah, no, and your point is well taken because a lot of people just innovation is just you know, it's that couple year time frame, but the the foresight lens, I think, is like a superpower if you can use it in innovation because you have a different horizon view, right? You can look differently at the flow of what needs to be in the pipeline and the portfolio, right?
SPEAKER_01100%. And and I think to many to a certain degree, Denmark is an innovation country. We're a country that had to innovate to really keep ourselves on top of the game, right? And that also speaks to our mindset. We're more about agility and and innov innovative capability than the long-term view uh to things. It might seem that the culture is very receptive here, it's as a national culture, but but it's also difficult sometimes to include in the conversations because people are have this also expectation that okay, we can always figure things out. So that's also something I I brought into this kind of experiment because that is what anticipate started out as. It was not me knowing that I wanted to do this for the rest of my life, it still isn't in that that sense. Uh, but I had kind of a drive and some ideas and some motivation to pursue building something from scratch. You know, it was nerve-breaking in the beginning. I I had a miserable first summer in the sense of like what should I do with my life in that sense. And uh, you know, I just had a brother.
SPEAKER_02We've all been there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I had a friend uh telling me we were part of the same like in the startup program that was offered. And I had a friend telling me it seemed like I was always very set in in my ways that I wanted to do this like uh from him from his perspective. And we've been knowing each other for now three years. And I didn't feel that way. I I was open to any opportunity that that came along. I was even opening to open to move abroad if if that if that may be. I was looking at opportunities in London, in in the US as well, uh to see if I had to take that step finally. But you know, I um I started out and I enjoyed it so much. Like the freedom, the that that I could actually pursue the things that I find I found important within foresight, you know, creating some impact, making it actionable, accessible, some of these concepts that I felt had been missing. Sometimes I might be perceived as a bit critical of the of the field because I feel like we we kind of we didn't really succeed in in bringing it out further. So society is still people still shocked that there's such a thing as future studies of foresight, uh when you tell them. And why do you think that is why do you think that is? Yeah, I think it of course it comes from it having like it the future is seen as not necessarily urgent in that sense, right? The way we've been framing it, that you know, people expect it to be five, ten years from now. I think we have to switch our mindsets. That's also why my company is called Anticipate, to the present perspective on the futures and how we can prepare and be anticipatory about potential futures out there. So the futures are a tool, and for me in many ways, uh it's not I I love you know science fiction movies, I love building scenarios and all these things, but it's only only as a it's a big work in a word in this sense, but it's mainly relevant for me when it becomes actionable in the present. Like, what does it do to us today? What does it do? So our mindsets, our way of doing things, our decision making and all these uh these aspects that how does how do we integrate it into the organization? It doesn't it shouldn't just be inspiration for I I still use the futurist term, and that's a whole nother discussion because then people at least understand I work with the futures.
SPEAKER_02There's a protective nature because I don't want it to be diluted as a term. It's not like you can't be a futurist, but a lot of people as Alex Ferdinand will say these charlatans, the fake futurists. It's like it's one thing to be passionate about it. You know, I I I kind of look at it as if your future's interested, your future's adjacent, or you're like a really into doing the work, right? Democ you know, you and I both have a shared passion to democratize uh future's work, right? I think I think this decade is especially with the chaotic uh uncertainty that has transpired since twelve, you know, uh twenty twenty, and is everything that's happening now is this is being recorded, but you know, the world is you know, you tell me more uh chaotic and on fire, which you didn't probably think it could be, but hey, here we are. What's your take on it?
SPEAKER_01I understand the um the feeling of of need uh needing to be protective and and protecting the rigor, as there are certain ways that it of doing things that are you know more thorough approaches to foresight and futures and all this. I think there's also kind of um like a misunderstanding around that futures can be so many different things and different intentions, so it doesn't have to be foresight, foresight's sake in that sense. Um I think we're kind of it's it's too early to talk about like uh the watering out or what the term of of of futures because uh people still don't know uh futures even in their they don't have a futures in their life. So why are we started talking about this in our own community? I I know I it's an important discussion to have but it it it feels a bit hard when you see people pop futurists out there thinker finger blazing you know guns pointing uh in some direction saying disruption is 90 times in a in a keynote but but you know I don't I don't mind as long as people understand what I do because if I ask people in a in a room it doesn't matter if it's a workshop room with with top leaders or if it's a like public uh setting that word because that's almost like that's like a tech such a technical term I asked I said do you know what a futurist is and they're like no I'm like I do long-term strategy and that usually works at a cocktail party because they know like it's like longer than I'm like okay they're like okay cool because then I don't have to try and explain that's to your point but like what I love about you know and look you know all the futurists in the world we're we're trying to solve different problems we come out of from different ways which is wonderfully and robust and a beautiful part of this field.
SPEAKER_02But for those who are in innovation listening to this that are just really interested in the space, you know a lot of there's a lot of frameworks, a lot of approaches, things that are we'll call them de facto standards, right? Domain maps, things like that. But what I love what you've done is you've got you've simplified it right you've got this like you call it act anticipate, create transform and you're about actionable and it's very simple. And it's it's not over engineered which I really really like. So talk about how that how that's serving you and how it helps be actionable for organizations. Because that's I think a lot of people will be curious to understand.
The ACT Framework For Action
SPEAKER_01So uh so I've been trained in a certain way of doing foresight that is very good from the Copenhagen future studies I trained other people in that way doing scenario planning the Copenhagen method as it was called at some points what I failed to see was a bit of how it could be shifted depending on what outcome we're looking to have but this is very much intended with a with a strategy in mind. We could test it or we can develop a new one. But coming from innovation especially you know I felt like we needed other methodologies to to kind of be complementary and and and we can kind of change the lens depending on on what kind of focus we have. So that's why it's it's built up this way. So I think in every every single foresight or futures process we need to anticipate before we need to understand for the futures that could happen out there. As uh in the concept of the futures triangle with the the weight of the the past the push of the present and the pulls from of the future I think that's that's the bread and butter of of doing foresight what we always need to do it. So the next step is is create and that's very purposefully kept open because what we need to create is it's different. And there's also an iterative phase so just because we have a strategy we develop innovation concepts and prototypes doesn't mean that we should just extend that regard we should test it back towards uh the anticipation we did in the first phase I love the the kind of when you conjoin those two uh different fields because I think that's where it's most powerful which we need to kind of do as as we go and create as we go. So it's kind of a framework that intends to contain both those elements in it. And then the final phase and that's if you read the white paper we published uh a couple years ago uh Act Act Force framework white paper. I did it's it's kept very open transformation, right? But fundamentally that is the most critical phase how do you do the change management work necessary to make sure what you have done in anticipation, what you do in the creation of a strategy or innovation concept or revision it doesn't just end there that we have these great uh I don't know artifacts but we should also have an idea of how it then like moves into the organization on a more continuous level and I know we also speak a lot about futures ready organizations right so that's a lot of what the idea came from I also as uh from my time as the head of partnerships at CIFs that was the intention we wanted to build a partnership model where uh the organization that we work with they could like really get it into their like engine engine rooms and make it actionable in that sense.
Making Foresight Stick At Work
SPEAKER_02It's interesting you talk about the organizations you know I want to kind come back come back to that because the things you saw when you're at Copenhagen and even now are you seeing like foresight becoming more integrated or is it like I look at like foresight as a project right it's like this we do our scenarios thing at the beginning of the year we all feel warm and fuzzy or we do some you know future sprint just something right it's like it's more the integration of this do you find what what do you find like when we were at Copenhagen are organizations is there like a champion is someone trying to do it or is it more like what's what was the motivation for many people is it just to do a project with a particular pain point? Is it to try and build a foresight capability what what do you see a lot? What did you see?
SPEAKER_01I think it there's a difference between people who want to do foresight because they're super curious about this and think oh it could potentially have value or we've done it before so it might be relevant. A big uh target audience for projects in general that's people who just want to do foresight so as a consultant you're basically selling it the frameworks methodologies in the process not necessarily the outcome which is a weird situation to be in sometimes uh to be honest uh other times they need a refresh refresher or a a new way of looking at strategy right uh so a new CEO came in and he wants to he or she wants to be seen as visionary uh and they want to do like a different process where we really bring people together and create some buy-in on this there are I think increasing number of organizations that are doing it on a more serious level partly also I would argue because of the work that's been done in in the field of showing that this is not something that you have to contain to a process or project that can be done on a more continuous level so you should have the in-house capabilities it is not to say you should spend 100% of your budget uh but at least some of your budget on on having a bit of an eye towards the future I know of organizations that even have multiple different teams with different times time scales, time horizons, uh also organizations where really trying to see how we can build as a capability. And then that's I think one major difference from when I started almost 10 years ago to now is the interest in capability building. We don't want to learn how to fish ourselves we don't want to get served by fish necessarily we want to learn the tools and the tricks and the methods so we can do it again on a repeated basis. Then comes of course the difficult part we make sure we have a mandate uh a reason for doing this in the organization at a continuous level and that's sometimes also where a problem occurs right that the mandate typically a person in that vouches for it and in top management they they leave the organization or they decide against it or a budget uh happens. I know for example in F Fortune one the company where they had a foresight department and then you know priorities changed and then all of a sudden this company that of all should have the capacity to do foresight it was it was uh kind of made redundant and I think that's a great shame because they from what I'm hearing they did great work uh there. So um yeah I I'm seeing it from kind of different lenses that are kind of at place. It's not an easy fix to solve right as all change processes are in that way.
Selling Foresight And Cheap Masterclasses
SPEAKER_02Well and and you've done you've created and anticipate these master classes and there's a lot of you know master class stuff out there and for those listening I really encourage you to want to put some links in the notes you should check these out because I found it interesting when you kind of came out with this at first and I actually you know I can always I say as I signed up for it too I wonder if I paid for I wanted to see how you were approaching this because your first one was about selling foresight and you're like wait am I going to be a sales dude like a biz dev like no it's about making the case it's about the business case because you really have to find the champions right it's like everyone always kind of starts with learning the methods and like what it is about. But in the when it comes down to it you have to be able to actually make this happen. You have to get people to commit to it to financially support it. Sometimes you have to bring a person like yourself in or myself to facilitate this. I found that really cool and you know you you know you have the things like doing for the they're all action verbs I think is really nicely ties into a quite a quite a little library. I mean why how did why did you why did you start there?
SPEAKER_01Trying to put the words in your mouth my take I was like that's pretty brilliant so yeah I appreciate it uh thank you and and actually have to give credit to uh our uh futures colleague uh who kind of we came to me with the idea actually in in the beginning uh we met in in at the Buy Future forum in was it 2024 because of a common friend and we just clicked and we had a couple of meetings and then all of a sudden in the beginning of last summer she was like why don't we like do something together? What about these masterclasses? I love uh you know uh proactive and inspirable energy a lot I also see a lot of people and I have a hard criticism on this that people fail to commit to something so I'm always a bit wary of a uh what should what can we do that has like relatively low uh low time resources spent on something where we don't exactly know whether we will do this together at the end of the day or I don't like to build up like a huge project together for the first time and then you all of a sudden you don't hear from the person again. I experienced that a couple times and that's not it's not fun. The thing with Chloe was that she was actually super uh engaged and and follow up and we have come we have commentary skill sets. So she comes a bit more from a cultural foresight strength forecasting lens and have a lot of experience there and and and more experience than me in in the field. I come from more of like a strategic foresight perspective. So I think we we found a good match there and then we thought okay why let's make an experiment out this what do people actually want to hear about because we felt we could talk on different things. So actually the the first thing we did was to set up a poll we didn't have anything prepared but we just set up a poll what would you like to hear about selling foresight doing foresight and I think the last one was like basics of foresight and and it was kind of similar in in in in terms of what what it rated and how many people polled and there seemed like there was some interest for it right and and the idea with the master classes was that a lot of futures learning opportunities are expensive. Talk about gatekeeping is difficult to access for most people of course there are many great learning self-paced learning offerings out there. I'm building one uh myself with the with the anticipate act uh anticipating futures uh course uh so it will come out hopefully this year uh a lot of things have happened that that has kind of pushed it but uh yeah but there are a lot of different offerings out there but not really really accessible ones so which we tried to see uh if there's any interest and and you know for for now like I think 150 people signed up before the master class itself half of the people joined and since I think we sold 50 hundred or more uh of replays so it's been a great success and and it really gave us like some appetite for s for seeing more of like oh there seems like there's some so much interest in this this let's let's kind of build on that and see if we can make a whole package and we're planning to do a fourth masterclass later this spring as well on on cultural five support right it's accessible I mean it's 75 dollars US dollars and most people can afford it and 40 if you can't even make it you can I thought was really brilliant is like you want the recording you know you want to just watch it it's 40 bucks I mean that's accessible for anybody and I think when you get that you know you get a couple hundred people it's like you know it pays it pays every it pays for itself and it's something that it's like you said like some of the other big places you're talking thousands and thousands of dollars and it's a lot of time and I just don't have that I think it's when the skill set comes people need to learn it you know incrementally but it it makes me think about the the lot of those people that are on are probably well the lone the lone futurist you know the the one in the wilderness the the the evangelist you know and they may they're trying to build something I think the one thing that I've seen I want to get your take on this is when people leave and the capability evaporates.
SPEAKER_02You know it's like how do we make this thing how do we make this stick in a culture? Like what do what are you have you seen any things that work? Like I'm just curious to because it kind of revolves around this like education and and and spreading that word right getting people educated about it.
SPEAKER_01I I think that's that's you know besides the mandate part of whether you have mandate to do this this is the biggest problem at uh whatsoever right it's like and I've saw this a lot especially as a head of partnerships because we had to 45 different partner organizations. Not all of them were interested in integrating foresight in the way that we we thought that would be good for them. But a lot of these people out there were lone wolves as you say like whatever you might call them like small teams that really were trying to like claim in a territory that that was difficult to get into and and the first thing I always said is like find allies. Like that's number one priority. You can't keep this to yourself. I know it's tempting because it's also a political situation internally in the organization you want to be the futurist or the futures person but you need to find allies. You need to find those people across all different departments that will support your mission. You know meet up for brown back lunches for signal scanning workshops get some interest do some capability building it doesn't have to be only in your department and then of course also look up to whoever is paying for this right and make sure that their meet needs are met as well because that's sometimes also at fault that's that they get the loan wolves get so busy serving the rest of the organization then that the budget it comes from an at that department that doesn't get any use of it right so it's kind of that divided focus in a sense and I I have seen some great examples for example a a big Swedish retail company where this is very much an experiment and what they did was really turn a process into more of a like a capability building initiative. So you know building like kind of like a trends framework taking different kinds of engagements different activities into different departments depending on who the audience was so whether it was like the legal staff or whether it was designers and you need to talk to people in different ways to make futures interesting and relevant for them right communication I think that that's something I want to mention communication is is critical here. We're talking about something that's complex for people already from the beginning where you say futures it's this you're opening up a whole box of things that they can't you know contain in their heads. So we have to talk about something very complex here. So you need to make it accessible in a certain way and communicate with the receiver in mind. That's what people also need to do on the insides of companies communication communication communication and then of course build build slowly find allies or build some momentum for this do some cool projects that people want to be part of and then I think the risk will follow in in many ways but uh but it's it's always it's the ups and downs and of course I haven't been employed in that position I've only been able to support from the outside but I think there's there's so much potential if we really could get this into organizations in a in a proper way.
History, Migration, And Hopeful Framing
SPEAKER_02I would love to do this is this is a great kind of transition into kind of like let's go let's let's zoom out right let's I'm I'm for those listening on the audio my hands are going animation going you know big world view kind of like huge kind of perspective because like we've been talking a lot about organizational stuff so the the the organizational nerds on here but if you're just joining from a from a from the time stamp let's talk about kind of this where we go from here but also a perspective like we're both into geopolitics and macro history right the formation the nation's day like you're in the day you we both have intersections we both find it fascinating right obviously most most futurist kind of look at this they talk about five to ten years right but when you think of this kind of the arc of history and and if you're I think every good futurist is a student of history. I think they look at cycles they look at patterns but they also understand you know what motivates people at certain times wars for resources the last you know thousand years all of these ages as I like to call them these is everything's been dependent on human energy, human labor, right? We're moving to a different place where we've got machines, things are going to be smarter than us, robotics. I mean we're gonna it's gonna change the it's gonna change so much what do you where we are in this kind of moment in time where do you what do you think history teaches us as futurists like about like when we're in this you know where we are I know it's like it's like it's an easy question.
SPEAKER_01But you know hey it's it's fun it's just a great it's a great question and I I think there's so much to say about this topic and I know you also you've written extensively on on on this and I think there's a lot lots learned from that as well and I think fundamentally what I find interesting about futures is is people I mean I'm very simple like that right uh yeah and you know we are people and we tend to forget that there's been people before us that's been through crisis that seemed uh unsurmountable in a sense like just like we are now. And we say we tend to repeat the same patterns over and over in some ways but there are always something that changes over time. And that's something we shouldn't get too locked in on history but still learn from what has been going on and we I think we have a pretty I don't think our we're not really up to up to the task of of get getting a history into our society and and learning from that in a proper way. So how can we even get the future as something we can learn from I think that's that's kind of those two things fit together if you also look at like the modern versions of the of the futures cone in that sense that we come from uh come from many different paths and we're in different presents and then we are looking into different futures there's so much to to talk about there and I think one one example and and I think when I was uh talking with you uh in the beginning we just had a little discussion uh before this I was reading a book on on migration uh throughout time that out yeah I think that's uh that's that was a fascinating like look into you know how we always been moving around we we tend to forget sometimes that you know we've been going all over the place for for s centuries on end for tens of thousands of years uh and it's really shaped us a lot in our ways of viewing the world our cultures it's not that culture is a static thing that we can just expect to like continue react as if it is sometimes but we keep being shaped and we should also accept that there are some things that will change. I think that's what people have a hard time with right uh that's sometimes where history can be comforting to say okay we have been through things before that that changed us but in a positive way we're many ways better off. We have been moving around we have pursued new opportunities there has been of course a lot of tragedies throughout history but also like groundbreaking new inventions that change the life for the better in most parts of the world or even in smaller settings. I think there's a lot to to learn that that things are not as you know either good or bad or dark and gloomy as we tend to see things as as we we have a I don't know a tendency to do. I I don't know if it's just the the human mindset that's very uh risk diverse and looking at these uh things like oh yeah we're gonna see it into the world soon and I experienced that a lot but we also have hope and hope is a very powerful focus for for doing good and and changing things for the better. So that was a little bit of a a rant I guess but I I think this is so interesting that we we should we should really like try to understand what we come from.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I agree I I no I agree I I think we're in a I think we're in a transition period. Obviously you look at like Strauss and how you look at um contrari you look at any kind of like cycles pattern even bigger ones like Toynbee or Spengler's macro you know kind of the macro history of civilizational change you know it's all kind of converging and we are in a crisis period I do think we'll emerge from it I think right now people don't they're seeing just you know any and think about it right anybody's 25 years old grew up after 9-11 right they know nothing but just kind of like the turn the chaos and it's hard to kind of convince that but in the longer lens the wider view of it you know we will it's gonna be a different world five years from now different probably a multipolar world uh you know one of the things I've always said like you know if you you and I want to do a master class we should teach one on game theory I don't think enough futurists use game theory in the you know the probable outcomes because that's one of the things I use a lot and in in my work is understanding those choices or the everyone makes the different choices and instead of the obvious choice. And I think that on a global scale leaves a lot of you know uncertainty and there'll always be uncertainty to some degree um but I think we're I think we're okay. I think you did a session you talked about you know hope for a greener future right I mean that was that your Yeah that was the name name of a session I did uh yeah recently about having hope right I think of my I think of Nick Badbitten who talks about being a hope engineer right hope rather than do. You know why is that why do you think that kind of framing is important? Like how do you you know how do you how do you maintain that when everyone's kind of like no man no it's not going to happen.
SPEAKER_01I I think we shouldn't also and that's also contrary to what I I learned a lot in my early days as the future as the foresight was that we shouldn't unestimate the the framings that we have in the future. We have of course we can't be non normative in our approaches to doing foresight unfortunately like in and we can't be fully objective because we bring with us some some package and good Good and bad. And uh and I think that's something I I've learned over time is that we also need to the right f frame for the right situation in that way. And this is of course I I tend to see myself both as as idealistic in some ways that I really want to democratize futures, whatever is the cost is gonna be in some ways. But I also am pragmatic that you know it needs to fit the purpose of what we're doing. And I think right now what we need is to look at things in more hopeful uh framing. I think pessimism and you know can can lead to you know a realization that something is wrong, but also an apathetic state where we don't do anything, right?
SPEAKER_02It's like yeah, the black pilled futurist, the black pilled futurist. Like that's please please don't anybody get that dot com don't domain. But yeah, no, it's always like it's coming up there. Look, I mean I'm I'm uh connected a lot with the the survivalist community. And I mean look, I love the show alone. Like it's all it's a fascinating study in human social behavior, but like you know, the belief of like the preparedness community, it's like you just there's like a lot of catastrophists, like they want the world to burn. I don't want the world to burn. I like the world.
AI Risks And Beige Futures
SPEAKER_02One of the things that's been a large topic this last year and a lot of conversations on the show and I've had is around artificial intelligence, and not in the sense of artificial like intelligence as it's going to make the world magical and solve all of our problems, but I'm looking at it what it's doing to kind of power foresight in good ways, and in some ways it's kind of like making me concerned about what I call safe futures. It's not really pushing the limp, you know, provocation. It's like, you know, when you are teaching like a master class and you're talking to clients, are you using this? Are you seeing the use of this in a way that's positive and maybe some cautious cautionary tales of democrat, you know, in terms of democratizing futures? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think this is such a big potential disruption in good and bad. And then and again, I always talk about good and bad, and of course that's also with my kind of subjective opinion of it. But when we when we did the augmenting foresight masterclass, I had many uh second thoughts on AI in that way of what people expected from that masterclass and what they didn't got was, I think, in some ways different. You know, I was not gonna my plan was or our plan was not to share exactly how it you can shortcut the foresight process because the course of foresight is that you bring people along on the journey. Like you can make the most beautiful scenario report at the end of the day and say, here, here it here you go, and no one reads it and no one is impacted by it. So that has no value in essence, right? It's a great story, but once no one no one cares. Uh so you need to bring people with you on the journey, and we can't shortcut that part, and that's why I also care a lot about facilitation and the human side of of featuring that way. I think, of course, we can make things in certain ways quicker, easier, come together. I read something about someone uh who was trying to do like um connective signal scanning exercise, and there was some pre-work to that exercise. Yes, and it was asked people to bring some signals uh to the workshop. And from what she could see, it was just uh her framing of it that people put into ChatGPT and then had to produce some uh serious signals. And I think that's really where I can see AI not being very useful at the moment, for example. That thought provocation, the I tend to call the beige futures or like great futures in that sense. The many the fifty shades of grade, that is all the variations the same, and it will keep becoming that more and more if we keep producing things, right? Because it learns from its own behavior. And AI, generative AI is learning from itself at the moment, right? It's it's something that's kind of uh replicating its own uh behavior in some ways. So I think there are some warning signs. I think it can help and make it more accessible in many ways. If all of a sudden we can do uh something that took a lot of a big budget uh before, doing scenarios, we can make it in a more lightweight uh streamlined version that that can help more organizations uh think about the future, but we need to be careful with what we replace and process, I think, and along the
Career Advice, Weak Signals, Closing
SPEAKER_01way.
SPEAKER_02What I would love to kind of, as we kind of get into the close of the show, is kind of get some more rapid, punchy kind of questions here. So I think one of the things your journey's been so interesting is you're also young, few you're young in this space, and but you've got a lot of experience, which you know is a rare thing. And for someone's kind of wanting to do this work, like what do you tell them where to start? I mean, like if you're going back to yourself, like what would you tell, what would you give advice? There's a lot of people, like you said, it's not as easy to get into the space at times. And I get that question a lot, and that's also why I've built some resources on the website, right?
SPEAKER_01Uh I've been trying to help people a little bit. It's difficult. I think the most difficult thing technology is that you probably need some experience that you're not going to get paid for. And that's very difficult because there are so many people who think they they fall, stumble upon upon foresight or futures, and they're like, whoa, this is exciting, like this is the best thing in the world, like I also think, and you think, right? And then they they get kind of apathetic when they then experience, oh, not everyone thinks this way. It's actually something that's very hard to bring into reality that we want to do this. So go out there and get some experience and like host formats where you're really trying to get better at facilitating these things. And also, as you said previously, try to see how it can fit into your role, what you're doing already. Not everyone can live off foresight, is is quite difficult. We're not that not that many people in the world, and I it's also taken a while for me in the sense of building something that that was uh sustainable enough, right? But I think get some experience, go out there, read, of course, but don't read too much. Maybe even find your Bible. My Bible in that sense was uh Out of the Longview uh by Peter Schwartz, a classic uh book where we talked about Toughlur, and there are many the imaginable, that's the book that's been recommended to me the most, Jane McGonagall's imaginable. I still have to read it and I feel bad. Many people who are new to the field have said that kind of blew their minds. So go out and find a Bible and get started that way. Um so uh and I think make it it's fun, like it's exciting. So there's uh there's plenty of motivation to get home.
SPEAKER_02So let's kind of turn it inward, like for you, or well, more of the the view. Is there any what's the what's like one signal or weak thing that you're seeing out there you're while you're kind of tracking right now? You think most people are just like missing?
SPEAKER_01And it's a really difficult question because I think there are quite a few, and I I think something around how our language changes over time. I I noticed my language has changed with the use of AI that actually it's it's kind of morphing together. I also noticed the language of of the younger generations and how how they're using language. I think there's there's so much complexity to language that we need to understand better because that's really where communication for me is critical. I'm not I didn't study communication anyway, but I just know between the humans and people, it's it's it's a difficult thing to do, but if we do it right, we can really move things, move the needle. Uh so I think it's kind of not highlighted enough how much our language matters in certain ways. Not to say that we should always necessarily use the right terms, I think a completely correct academic term for anything. I think that can sometimes be limiting, but finding out like how do we kind of uh find strike the right balance between that being absolutely correct and meeting people where they are. Um, because that that's that's the easiest way to distance people is to uh make things too complicated, confusing language. If you say long-term strategy, that's easier to understand, right, than we're talking about these these uh difficult things. Uh so I think that's that's maybe more of a meta signal in the end that's uh in in that way. Uh but I think it is super interesting. And and another one is is the kind of the failure to commit to things uh in society on a on a bigger scale. We have become individualized in many parts of the world, and and that has led to some consequences that might have further consequences down the line, in that sense that like we the what's in it for me mentality for me is a bit bit scary. Of course, we need to keep that in mind to protect ourselves and what we prioritize, but also we're playing on too many horses at the same time sometimes. So uh like we can't get anything done if we don't try to find be empathetic to other people and try to understand where you're coming from. Find some sort of consensus, even though it can be difficult. You need to go out and disagree with people to reach a better point in time. So like the whole collaboration culture, commitment, I think that's also something I'm I'm a bit worried about uh at the moment of how things are and and also in the next uh five, ten years. Hopefully there will be something that that kind of sparks a change in this way.
SPEAKER_02What do you think would be the thing to to uh make the change over the next 10 years? Like what what would what would make it work?
SPEAKER_01I hate I hate to say it, but we need to change either by design or disaster. And uh it seems like this disaster is the more likely option. Unfortunately, the more probable one if we talk in the future's language, but we can also design a way out of things. So I think we need to with all the everything that's going on in the world, seek back to our local communities in a way. I also talk about, and there's uh and I can't remember who it it was who said this, but but being um a citizen, it should be an active verb. It's something we are and part of who we are in when we go out with society, democracy on a very local community basis, that we have agency in decisions, we have a role to play, and we should also take responsibility on ourselves to make it better for the the collective because then we all might even feel better generations from now, people might feel better because of what we did, right? So yeah, I hope that that's a those are very high high words in that sense, but I think it needs to start from the the bottom up in many ways. It seems like we're playing uh playing a not not the best game on the geopolitical level at the at the moment, unfortunately. So much happening. So return to to local uh engagement.
SPEAKER_02I love that. I mean, that's you know, that's a great way to wrap. It's uh you know, we need to we need to go local. Conversation I had yesterday was a similar, you know, about you can't make the change on the you can really affect is, you know, used to be the the bumper sticker, you know, you know, think globally, act locally, right? It's like it's the same same thing. When I that's that's a great way to to kind of wrap this conversation up. I just wanted to say thank you for just uh your time, but just uh kind of a great view into you know a wonderful beginning of career that you're just you've got so much ahead and you're doing great work and uh just glad people can and if people want to find you, obviously, as we right, and I'll have in the notes. What's the best way to uh you know get in touch and get to know you, get your way to it.
SPEAKER_01Well, LinkedIn I think is where most active uh the two active somewhat arcu. Uh uh otherwise anticipatefutures.com. Anticipate.com is taken unfortunately by some domain sharks. I'm very annoyed. I'm gonna buy it someday, but anticipate futures.com. I haven't tried yet, I I don't dare. Uh but it seemed like they're they're pro uh domain sharks. But but yeah, so so until then. And otherwise it's uh hi at anticipate.dk after TK is a Danish domain. So and also in terms of what you just said, I'm still learning a lot. Like I'm I'm still into this. I must say I really appreciate how many people have taken the time throughout the last few years where I've been trying to open up and see what else out there, and they have really like been a huge influence in me. I've met so many amazing people on conferences, online, and virtual coffee meetings, and that's really changed my worldview for the much better in the community and outside. So I I really want to appreciate that, and I hope to pay it forward to some people as well. That's something I I want to prioritize as as things might get busier for me, we would anticipate, but but still prioritizing that part. So I also appreciate your chance to to speak about these things on your podcast, Steve. Uh that's that's amazing.
SPEAKER_02Great. Well, thanks for being here. We'll uh we'll see you probably for round two at some point. So thanks for your time today. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Think Forward Podcast. You can find us on all the major podcast platforms and at www.thinkforwardshow.com as well as on YouTube under Think Forward Show. See you next time.
