Think Forward: Conversations with Futurists, Innovators and Big Thinkers
Welcome to the Think Forward podcast where we have conversations with futurists, innovators and big thinkers about what lies ahead. We explore emerging trends on the horizon and what it means to be a futurist.
Think Forward: Conversations with Futurists, Innovators and Big Thinkers
Think Forward Ep 103 - Dark Nudges with Dr Ja-Nae Duane
Welcome fellow futurists and big thinkers to the Think Forward podcast. My name is Steve and I am a futurist.
Welcome to our third episode, where we greet our first official guest, Dr. Ja-Nae Duane. a behavioral scientist at Brown University who researches how organizations can prepare for disruptive events and adapt their systems and behaviors.
In this episode, Dr. Duane dives into the world of digital nudges and their darker counterpart, dark nudges. We cover the future of education, future of work and how to adapt in this emerging era of AI. She leaves us with a bold prediction about humanity's need to radically change our relationship with nature and the possibility of a sooner-than-expected "mass exodus" to Mars.
Ja-Nae's site: www.ja-nae.io
Steve's site: www.stevenfisher.io
Think Forward Show: www.thinkforwardshow.com
Thank you for joining me on this ongoing journey into the future. Until next time, stay curious, and always think forward.
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Thank you for joining me on this ongoing journey into the future. Until next time, stay curious, and always think forward.
My next guest is Dr. Janae Duane. She's a behavioral scientist at Brown University who researches how organizations can prepare for disruptive events and adapt their systems and behaviors. With an impressive entrepreneurial background, she's currently in her fourth company, and she has fascinating insights to share in this episode. Dr. Duane dives into the world of digital nudges and their darker counterpart, dark nudges. She explains how these hidden influences manipulate users choices, sometimes against their best interest from deceptive gaming loot boxes to sneaky subscription signups, to learn how to spot these tricks. Dr. Duane also explores the future of education, and she argues for a radical disruption to create a system that supports lifelong learning in an age of longevity. She discusses the role of AI algorithms in shaping user experiences and emphasizing the need for transparency in user agency as AI becomes increasingly influential. She also highlights the key skills like adaptability and creativity enhanced by AI tools, curiosity, and how to have a mindset of continual learning. She leaves us with a bold prediction about humanity and the need to radically change our relationship with nature and a possibly sooner than expected mass exodus to Mars. Get ready for a thought provoking conversation that will challenge your assumptions and expand your horizons. Welcome to episode 103 of the think forward show dark nudges with Dr. Ja-Nae Duane. So welcome welcome to the podcast.
Ja-Nae:Thanks for having me. Thanks for having a podcast.
Steve:It's been a long time to come back. So I'm glad you're the first official guest on this journey into the future. So for those of who don't know you, which I don't know how many that will be, but if you could tell us a bit about yourself and I would get everybody up to speed on what you've been up to and what you're doing and who you are.
Ja-Nae:Yeah, sure. So I am a behavioral scientist over at Brown University. I also do some research over at MIT's Center for Information Systems Research. And yeah, a little bit about me. I've been working with multinational organizations for about a decade now around their systems. Essentially, their systems of the future. How do they grow? How do they scale? How do they particularly post COVID deal with These events that that seemed tumultuous at the time and where in many instances their systems are just not ready and prepared for them, their employees are not ready or prepared for them. And so identifying ways to change some of those systems and behaviors so that they can have a level of preparedness is where I've been spending a good amount of time. And before that, I'm on company number four my first foray into entrepreneurship was as as an opera singer, which we can or cannot get into that. That's totally fine either way. But it's been a nonlinear path, which I find that most individuals have. But when you start off in those on that journey, it's it's definitely something that you're not. anticipating. So if you asked me, even 15 years ago, 10 years ago, would I be a behavioral scientist or is that something I would even consider? I would say no, because it wasn't even in the forefront of my mind or something that I thought was possible for me. And here we are.
Steve:Oh I was gonna talk more about your journey, but I think that's a good coverage. You've become an expert in dark nudges. So could you explain that to, let's just say, imagine I'm seven years old.
Ja-Nae:Oh, okay.
Steve:How would you explain Dark Nudges to, or even better, a college freshman,
Ja-Nae:yeah. Before we get into dark nudges, we should talk about what digital nudges are. And digital nudges are really any data, information, incentives AI, and design elements within a digital environment that guide you to an outcome. So for example, let's say your phone, you end up getting text messages that pop up, those notifications would be considered a nudge to go and check your text messages. Within an e commerce website, you might be nudged to buy certain products and to buy now because you will end up with a discount. Those would be considered digital nudges. Now, dark nudges are the same thing, except the intent is different. So with dark nudges, those nudges Manipulate, coerce, or confuse the user to act against their best interest. And we actually see this a lot within gaming. One example that a student brought up to me yesterday was he was playing a game and it was pushing him to buy more. of, weapons and different elements in order to continue to play the game. Another example is I downloaded an app that I thought was free. I started to go through the user experience, but there's actually no free version as I'm going through it. It forces or is trying to act as a forcing function to get me to sign up for a yearly subscription. So those would be considered dark nudges where the intent is not necessarily to help the user or the consumer, but it's really in the best interest of of the organization or whoever designed that, that experience.
Steve:So that's great. How do you see this impacting especially in the world? Let me table that on the innovation stuff.
Ja-Nae:Okay.
Steve:And I'd like to talk to you about your work at Brown what do you find are the biggest challenges and opportunities in the future of education and what your work is, and where your work is leading you?
Ja-Nae:Yeah. It's really interesting as an alum of Brown as well. It's an organization and an institution that I, I believe greatly in. I have been within academia for most of my adult life and have seen the need to have systemic change within within this industry and within within the structure. of academia for most of that time. What I have found is that for those who try to make that change internally, much like with innovation within organizations, you end up really with small incremental changes. If you don't have a core group. that is really looking to disrupt the entire system and to see what is that next big thing and how can we, in many ways, how can we kill what we have now and create something completely new, then you're just going to get the same, you're perpetuating the same system that you have, right? Once you have a system in place, that system's feedback loops are meant to try to reinforce that system and keep it alive. And that's the same for an organizational system or an interconnected industry ecosystem. So for really, when we're thinking about education, the opportunity is for someone to come on in and truly disrupt not only how we learn, but what we value around education. Right now there's such, there's really such an onus on having that degree in order to work and and be credible. But we're living longer. We have generations now that are born that will live to be over 100. So how do we reframe what it means to learn? How do we reframe that mechanism of learning and what the system of education looks like to then to then support those lifelong learners who are not going anywhere. So I say that disruption has to come from the outside because I've yet to see, even institutions that I love, I've yet to see an institution that is trying to radically disrupt itself.
Steve:Interesting. Looking about disruption, the talk of the day and everyone, everybody's tongue is artificial intelligence. You talked about a lot of instances with nudging and, I think in the paradigm of just, pushing you to do certain things with traditional web or e commerce. How does that, how does nudges get into play with bias and artificial intelligence systems? And some of your work has been in that. So
Ja-Nae:The whole intent of an algorithm is to have you achieve an outcome, and that outcome is dependent on whomever the designers of that algorithm What we find now or what we're finding is that we have to have conversations not only about who's at the table designing those algorithms, but what happens when you have reinforcement models where the algorithms and AI is learning from itself, really having an understanding of how we set up those instances of AI so that we allow for more freedom of choice instead of a guiding or an influence towards one outcome is, I think, a really important conversation to have now and one that's not necessarily being halved. So it's more than just identifying who within the organization needs to have a seat at the table in order to mitigate for some of the biases that that exist in our design and not leverage design or biases within design, right? Because digital nudges, the whole intent is to leverage cognitive biases and heuristics. So if we are leveraging Some of our blind spots as as human computers then we really need to take into account how we're approaching AI as almost the architect of these experiences for the future.
Steve:how do you prepare students to do that? Work with to leverage this type of concept and information in their future potential future jobs how do you use it in a way that? Puts it as part of their operating system so that they have it in you know They recognize it when they're out in the working world
Ja-Nae:Yeah one of the ways in which I try to approach this is have individuals become more self aware of their own cognitive blind spots. So where do they have anchoring effects around specific information? When it comes to heuristics for even for a class, like what is their default? Like how do they think about the class? How do they approach assignments? what we take for granted in our day to day because there are shortcuts in our lives and helping us to process information. Getting students to take a step back and reflect on those shortcuts that they've created for themselves over the years is really the first step. Then it's helping them understand and question what are we experiencing now today in some of these user experiences? Where do we have the opportunity now as consumers and as users to provide either some feedback to organizations or really leverage some of our own agency, whether or not it's our purchasing, our purchasing dollars and deciding as to whether or not we use. It's a brand or buy from a brand. Just identifying where that agency for an individual is now, because many of these students are actually coming into these conversations feeling like they don't have agency. One they weren't even aware, when we have these conversations, they weren't even aware of the nudges that exist. But then two, they felt helpless or feel helpless most of the time. As to what they could do or the impact that they could have. So we talk about who they are as users and as consumers, but then we talk about what they can then do or change as they're heading into organizations and building their own apps, their own products, their own services, and how they might go about doing that in a more transparent, as well as a more collaborative way with hopefully their users or their consumers. Because honestly, Most consumers I know would love to co create with the brands that they love and it just builds a level of trust and almost a shared accountability around those experiences that, we don't see very often, unfortunately.
Steve:So how do you handle the skepticism or resistance when presenting these kinds of ideas? I'm sure you run into a lot of non believers, if you will.
Ja-Nae:Yeah, but there's non believers and skeptics everywhere, and there's resistance within every system, right? When we think about it, we're really talking about potential shifts in consumerism. We're talking about potential shifts in what capitalism might look like as an overall structure. So of course there's going to be resistance to that. However, Knowing that there is resistance, we then, I highlight to folks, okay, you can't necessarily make change where you're feeling that almost that pressure not to change. So instead, bend a little bit and go, this is not the entry point for change. And then you identify really where the weak spot within the system is so that you can start to have those conversations. So for example, if you're making organizational change, and this actually, this is a true story. So I was working with an organization who was really trying to help their their consumers by giving them access to their data and giving the consumers access to their data. Now the consumers were providing data, but the organization wasn't set up necessarily in a way to structure that data in a way to then, provide an output that made sense and give it back to the consumer. Part of the organization and part of leadership actually railed against making any type of change. They're like, we needed this data in order to show that we are it was, it was essentially social washing or greenwashing rather to show that we do sustainability, we have sustainability efforts, and we were checking all those boxes. But they weren't necessarily providing the other half of that deal to their consumers, which was that we're going to give you your data back in a way that makes sense. So knowing that specific leadership was pushing. not to make this change. What I ended up doing was working with lower level managers to identify who had influence within the organization to start to run pilots. And what we saw was by really Having in a group of folks who believe that this is what we should be doing for our consumers and having them utilize their leverage to push forward a pilot, we then saw more internal adoption. So you have to identify where there's that flexibility, and that's in any system, whether or not we're talking about a group of individuals, Or if we're talking about, a government, a city, whether or not we're talking about just making any type of large institutional change, identifying where those points of I don't want to say the points of weakness, but where those entry points in the systems are is really where you need to begin.
Steve:Just to switch gears a bit, what's one question you wish people would ask you about your work and how would you answer it? Everyone always likes to ask you things, but what do you really want to maybe share that you wish people would tell, would ask you?
Ja-Nae:Can I first give you the question that I wish people would just ask in general that has nothing to do with my work?
Steve:Sure.
Ja-Nae:Great. The question is why? We don't ask why enough. I find that in general, many people just lack curiosity around why something exists, why we're doing something, what motivates us to do the things that we do. And that question was actually ingrained in me by my by my civics teacher in in sophomore year of high school. And if it wasn't for her bringing that up to me and really pounding it into me day after day, I don't know if I'd be. I've always been naturally curious, but I'm not sure I would constantly be lifting up the rug to see what's underneath it. So that's the one question I wish I heard more of, just in general, and not necessarily even towards me. A question about. My research, or at least around digital nudging and dark nudges is the effect that these nudges will have when we get into more immersive environments like VR, because when we look at these digital nudges now, they're on screens. The idea is to really trigger system one so that, that reactive decision making where it's spontaneous and you're like, okay, this is what I want instead of that system to thinking of reflecting, having it be critical thought providing a little bit of time to walk through all of the scenarios. So in many ways. Many of these environments right now, or these platforms right now, leverage system one that that provide, a bit of cognitive overload for us. So what we don't know enough of, and this is part of what I'm exploring in a few different labs that I'm a part of, is what does cognitive load look like in general, within these virtual environments. And it's really interesting to start to explore that. In, in one case, we're exploring the the patient experience and the patient doctor relationship within virtual environments. And and what, What impact that has on even recollection of the conversation or recalling the information that say the prognosis that was made within that interaction. So there's so much that we don't know yet about how Being immersed in these environments say that if we move into, which my guess is we're more likely to do this, but move into either fully immersive or an overlay onto our current physical environment, what that will do to us cognitively.
Steve:Interesting. So one of the change gears on Moving toward more, some more technology and innovation conversations and entrepreneurship, you've talked about VR, do you think that's the most exciting advancement on the horizon? It's already here, but it's always, what do you think is out there? And what are you seeing is what excites you the most and when, why and here we go. And why?
Ja-Nae:And thank you, Steve. Yeah. So VR is here. Absolutely. What we're seeing with spatial computing is crazy right now. And the realism in which in which these environments end up, end up creating is to me, it's mind blowing in a fun, lovely way, also a scary way, because you can't always differentiate between what is real and what is what is, what I'll call, for the lack of a better term, more of an artificial construct, but I'd say that. from a technological perspective, what I'm really excited to see come to fruition, which we're still waiting on and we're still a bits out is really around quantum computing. Cause in many ways, even around cyber security, it's going to be a game changer for how how, our technology talks to one another, what that means from a privacy perspective, whether or not you can own your own privacy. It just opens many doors that that were postulated and promised with with Web 3 and that, that democratization of the internet. Which we knew wouldn't necessarily come, but we really hoped and really wanted to make sure we, we tried to at least push the idea out to as many people as possible. But I think Quantum is going to change the game a lot. How about yourself? What are you most excited about?
Steve:I think quantum is great. I think it also will help solve energy challenges. I think if the fusion era is nearly upon us, being able to get that captured in an economical way, I think quantum is going to be a big part of that. Also in terms of space travel, being able to put those types of computers and how to deal with. all the variables that could happen, just even trying to colonize Mars or terraforming. But AI I think AI is going through a hype cycle right now. I think AI is, it's transformative in many ways, but it's also, I think people's expectations are, if soon they're aligning, they're expecting that either We're going to have the robot apocalypse or it's going to be utopia and it's going to be neither and it's going to take a while and just like the passage of time and the passage of things like the cotton gin that change it to take that kind of thing takes time to adopt and those who will get on board and those who will not and I think we have a long Set of change ahead of us in this next decade for that to take place I think when I think about the world it makes me think of a work and life Do you what do you think? You know the concept of work will evolve to in the next decade.
Ja-Nae:Yeah. So actually before, before we get to that, you, I love that you brought up the contingent because we see this with any adoption of innovation, right? There's always a bit of that, that lag and we also have that deceptive phase where people don't believe that it's going to make change. I go back and I think about. the potato and how the potato has changed the world and in many ways created the modern agricultural blueprint that we, we know and have now. But when it was brought over from South America over to Spain, they didn't know what to do with tubers. They had never farmed with and they didn't know what to do with it. So it actually took 10 years. And people thought that it was an aphrodisiac. They thought that it would end up harming you. And so it took 10 years until we started to see people really experiment with it and then understand how to grow it. And then in, in many ways that staved off famine for parts of Western Europe. So I love that you brought up the cotton gin.
Steve:Your your infamous potato presented your talk and
Ja-Nae:potato.
Steve:I didn't know it had such rapturous and dangerous views, but then again, new technology, it's both that had, that carries through to today. So it's
Ja-Nae:That's right. That's right. So as far as the future of work and where we're headed, where I start. So where we're seeing changes now, let me start with where we're seeing changes now and then where I think we're headed. It's really interesting to see how. organizations are incorporating AI and particularly Gen AI into their workflow and into their tasks. So I find that many companies in which I talk to are really looking at that socio technical relationship as an extension of the work that they can do to increase productivity. And there are examples where it has cut work down for business units by 90%. Now these are all in, and that's a mix of gen AI and then having some more predictive AI models incorporated. So what I love is that we're seeing across the board, this adoption, no matter what the industry, no matter the level within the organization, that people had some hesitancy, but are looking for ways to optimize their current and augment their current workflows and tasks. What I think we're going to see more of on the AI side when it comes to the future of work are more governance structures and more of clustering and collaboration with AI being a member of those teams. So it's almost like working hand in hand the human and the robot, if you will. As I think about what the experience of the future of work is going to be, I think we're going to see more and more individuals live portfolio career, have portfolio careers, where they're working more than one job. And it's not that they're working full time, but that they're working almost on a project base because most of demographically or generationally rather. Most of the students that I see come through my doors, they're not looking to stay at an organization long term, and many of them have multiple jobs, and it's about doing something that fulfills them, and they're not able to find that in one place. And so I think that we're going to see more of a transitory relationship to work for this generation heading into the workplace. But I'm also excited, to move personally, I'm excited to move off of zoom. But I'm excited to see where we head as we move into fully immersive environments, but then into environments where. We have a digital twin of our workplace, and we can enter into that right in our own home, so that we're able to collaborate with one another and feel more of that social connection with those individuals even before we get to sensory sensory opportunities within work because we will get there. When it comes to sensors and allowing for touch and things like that. But I'm excited to see how we can blur what we consider as real versus digital. I'm also excited to see how the role of identity plays out within the workplace, because if you can show up in a completely different skin and with a completely different name, but your credentials, your name, your health records, your employee records, everything is on is on your personal wallet, which is on a chain, and you can wear whatever skin that you want to wear. Maybe you're a zebra one day, you're an astronaut another day. It really changes how we perceive identity and how we interact with one another and what those power dynamics might look like within an organization as we navigate Our own identity journeys, if you will.
Steve:So what skills do you think will be most important?
Ja-Nae:So I think that being being adaptable and actually being anti fragile, like being able to embrace shock and embrace embrace uncertainty is going to be paramount. If we are in a place where technology will never be slower, and the adoption to technology will never be slower than it is today, then what is that going to mean for us as a society even five years from now, let alone 10 years from now? So to be able to Know that there's going to be uncertainty as to how to interact with technology and that relationship because we do we have a relationship with our technology being able to have that flexibility and also have that anti fragile mindset around, anything that might come your way is going to be key. I think creativity is something that's never going to it's going to be needed more so than we highlight it now. Because what AI can do right now is provide you inspiration, but then it's your job to make that happen. to utilize AI as a tool and as a co creator to then think beyond your wildest imagination. And so in many ways, I think that AI is going to help us unlock a bit of where we've been stuck creatively. So I think being curious, being creative and yeah, that, that's And that ability to be curious, to ask why, and to push the boundaries of your own heuristics, and and what you view as not only what is real, but also what as a person, and as a citizen of Earth, and then hopefully soon a citizen of the interplanetary system. It's going to be up to us to have that creativity to, and that, that curiosity to want to explore and then what to do once we do explore the ability to embrace ambiguity and fear and just roll with that is going to be a lot of fun to see roll out. Yeah I'm actually really excited for what the future will bring from a skills perspective and, but also from a mindset perspective, but what about you? What skills do you, not to flip the flip the script on you, but like what skills are you excited to see? To see roll out over say the next seven, seven to 10 years.
Steve:I think the most skill, I think the most skilled people will be autodidactic. I think that skill set of lifelong learning instead of learning, learn for four years and then barely change or be forced to change. I think though that mindset will not survive or it'll be in a relegated to a certain part of civil, of society. I don't, I think you have to be motivated, not just, for money to grow, but there's got to be something that you have to get into the constant rate of change. I think that's for me, because other things, you mentioned, those are all great ones, but that's what I think. I would offer that people need to recognize that we are. on the precipice of change that hasn't been seen in a very long time. So it's not just a cycle of World War II, it's something different. I think those who recognize that, so there's almost Those who are futures literate and futures fluent, I think that's the other skill set. Always not living in the future, but understanding how to navigate it and how to move through and see what possible futures are occurring and turning into the present reality. I think that'll allow someone to place their bets if you're right, pick the right horse if you will. Thank you. Yeah, I think the thing I'd love to for, yeah, that's what I think. So I think the thing I'd love for us to do is we wrap things as I like to do some rapid fire stuff. Which fits to this as we wrap up, what would you think is one bold prediction about the future? And I know we don't really predict the future, but let's just go with it. You believe everyone should be preparing for I don't know what to navigate. What do you think?
Ja-Nae:Okay. One prediction is that we will need to change how we live on earth and what those and what that looks like, how we interact with with nature. I think That is absolutely something that's coming our way sooner rather than later. And there, I also predict that we may need to have a I don't want to say a mass exodus to Mars, but that's going to happen sooner than sooner than we predicted. And more individuals will need to go because we won't necessarily be able to maintain
Steve:Good. This is good. Keeping on the vein of this dystopian collapse or, that we had to restart civilization. What two books, two pieces of music and two things would you bring? Or go to Mars? What would you've got to pack light.
Ja-Nae:Oh man. Okay. I would definitely bring Mozart. Absolutely. 100%. I would also, I have to bring two, two pieces of music.
Steve:One. Yeah. You're picking a composer. So you're cheating. It's a body of
Ja-Nae:I think Mozart's the foundation for the rest, if you will. Yeah, so I would start with, how about this? I would do Mozart and John Coltrane from a book perspective. I personally would make sure that Hermann Hesse is is amongst that collection. And ooh, what would be a good next one? Maybe Viktor Frankl would be a really
Steve:That's good. Any things you want to bring?
Ja-Nae:Things?
Steve:Yeah, Probably not your cell phone.
Ja-Nae:Yeah, definitely not my cell phone. I'm not interested in bringing that as, at all. I'd want to bring a notebook. And maybe a notebook that, oh yeah, so a notebook that much like the moleskins where you can then microwave them and it gets rid of the ink, as long as I can move my
Steve:the rocket books, the rocket book.
Ja-Nae:oh so great as long as I can move my notes to to a repository. The ability to actually write out my notes is something that I would want to continue to do. So that's an absolute. Other than that, I don't really think as long as I have clothes on my back, I think I'll be pretty good.
Steve:All right. So not exactly rapid fire. Let's go through some other ones. Personal. What's the one thing you learned in your career that you wish you knew when you started?
Ja-Nae:Oh, that you can't necessarily push your way through creating change or changing a system,
Steve:What continues to inspire or push your boundaries? Oh,
Ja-Nae:my son.
Steve:great answer. Speaking of that, so advice to a future generation, like what advice would you give, as your son next generation of thinker and innovator, to make positive impact, what advice would you give?
Ja-Nae:would say what I say to him now, that anything's possible. And anytime he says, I can't, I say, it's not that you can't, you just don't know how to yet. So let's figure out that way.
Steve:Legacy question. How would you want your work to be remembered and what impact do you hope it makes?
Ja-Nae:I would want my work to help humanity identify a more utopian version of itself and a path forward. So that is really my hope and dream but to do that creatively.
Steve:It's great. I wanted to wrap and just ask if you wanted to share any connection information or places people should go or what's going on coming up that people should be aware of. I'd love
Ja-Nae:yeah, so working on a few books now with my coauthor who is running this really great podcast and I'm the first. And the first guest of so I would definitely tune in to him. I also have a podcast, the Janae Duane show, which you can feel free to find over on YouTube, but you can also find me at Janae. io or on any of the socials.
Steve:Thanks for being here and thanks for being on the Think Forward podcast and we will I'm sure we'll have you back on. Thanks for your time, Dr.
Ja-Nae:Thanks, Steve. Thank you.
Steve:Bye bye.
